Glossary ideas and requests

[Whiteroom]

So which part of a semi circle is the 'tightest point'?

[Ghost]

In skiing the turn radius doesn't instantly go from infinity to that of the semi circle at the beginning of the turn and suddenly jump back to infinity at the end. If you are approximating a semi-circle, I suggest you vary the radius continuously throughout the turn. You can have an early apex turn with the tightest part near the beginning or a late apex with the tightest part near the end of the turn, or you can have the apex in the middle of the turn, depending on your choice of line.

A double-apex turn is probably what you end up doing if your try to approximate a semicircle

[Ghost]

Here's an idea. Let's get an official EPIC skier level (1-9) definition stuck on instead of having to constantly refer people to half a dozen different web sites.

[GarryZ]

Originally Posted by Lars

Garry, in the Supporter lounge there is a place for technical discussions. It's there for just this purpose. A place where people can go and discuss issues in relative comfort from hit and run posters, mostly non supporters who might have a different agenda.

My suggestion, when questions are posted here, if they are relatively simple and not confusing, just post the answer and let further discussion go. If the question needs discussion, take it there so there is no confusion to the person posting the question.

This way we won't have 30 post answers for a simple thread.

Nice suggestion. I'll follow it. The beginner zone s a place for riders to get good ,simple answers. Not them being dragged through microscopic inspections for the sake of another arguement or statements meant to cloud issues and not help bring a better understanding

[gobucks]

How about some more questions about snow conditions?

What is "crud" snow?
Is it tracked out powder... or is it what results after a groomed trail is skied over by alot of traffic?

How about "mashed patatoes"?

Ok, one last one... "Death cookies" or "chicken heads"?

[klkaye]

Originally Posted by Pete No. Idaho

BOILERPLATE Solid ice, not hardpack, not skied off hard snow Bue solid ice.

I hate to be the thread hardass ... (hee hee Bonni) but ... If you're not 100% positive that your information is correct ... you should not post it.

Boilerplate is not ice ... not by a long shot ... it's white, not clear. Blue ice is blue ice. Ice is clear or blue (transparent) ... it's completely hard and frozen water ... common sources are snowmaking pipes and underground springs or waterways or spring thaws that refreeze overnight.

Boilerplate is just a skiing slang word. Snow packs on any given trail to form a "base" of snow. This snow is compressed into a solid that is still edgable, but does make some noise. A pure carved turn doesn't make noise but if there is any skidding, then as the ski washes over the snow it scrapes against the surface and this is the noise you will hear.

[Bonni]

I'm not a hardass........it's soft and squishy now.

[klkaye]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Here's an idea. Let's get an official EPIC skier level (1-9) definition stuck on instead of having to constantly refer people to half a dozen different web sites.

A standard exists ...

level one -- never ever
level two -- starting to learn how to turn and stop on learning surfaces
level three -- starting to link turns, able to stop on some green surfaces
level four -- reliably turning in both directions (linking turns) and stopping on all green and some blue surfaces
level five -- mostly parallel linked turns on all green and blue surfaces
level six -- parallel skiing on all green and blue and most black surfaces
level seven -- mostly dynamic parallel skiing on all green, blue and black surfaces
level eight -- mostly dynamic parallel skiing on all snow surfaces
level nine -- dynamic parallel skiing on all snow surfaces

(the most important distinction is that this is NOT in reference to groomed surfaces ... it's in reference to slope steepness ... it includes all skiing: groomers, powder, moguls, trees, etc. ... typically people ski at a higher level in some conditions than others)

[klkaye]

duplicate posting ... not sure why and couldn't find a delete command ... sorry

[nolo]

It's nice that so many people want to help beginners. If I may make a suggestion: every word that might appear in a skier's glossary does not have to appear in a beginner's glossary. Apex being one, in my opinion.

Types of snow--do beginners ordinarily experience the vast varieties of snow except groomed corduroy? Perhaps we should limit the types of snow we define to those normally encountered by beginners: machine groomed, powder and packed powder. (And supply link to discussion of types of snow here at epicski...) When they become intermediates they should be encouraged to purchase Bob Barnes's Encyclopedia.

[BigE]

nolo,

Apex is as critical a point in the turn as is transition. Should we avoid transition as well?

For beginners, we're also trying to give them some words to build on, that matches the type of skiing that we are teaching. We teach round turns to beginners correct? So, for a beginner: the apex of the turn is when the outside ski points straight down the fall-line. Any more exacting definitions are of no use to the beginner.

Is it usefull? Sure it is. You've given them a point in the turn that divides the turn into two parts, the upper half and lower half. Those sticklers here will scream and say that's only for symmetric turns, but since we're teaching BEGINNERS round turns, it's fine to talk about two halves.

Above the apex, we're finding a sturdy way to balance and set edges (stacking anyone?). Below the apex, the pressure begins to rise, which you can manage better if you've already found a sturdy way to balance and have actually set/enagaged your edges above the apex.

If we go for the generalized version, there are too many other specifics needed to identify exactly where the apex we are talking about is located.

There are problems with "tightest part of the turn" as well, since the model of a round turn has no unique tightest part. It certainly grates with my feelings of flow through a round turn to think I'm not really making a round turn, which is the turn I am teaching.....

Perhaps, the apex of a left turn could be the point where we stop going right. how about:

Apex: the point in a turn where we start going in the other direction.

But now, I have the round turn problem of explaining how I get two halves around the apex. With apex = skis pointing down the fall-line, the student knows the turn is half over.

[GarryZ]

You bold letters are a good ,simple accurate definition for the beginner. Not much differant than the one I offerred in my first post. I like yours and when you are thoughtful to our goals here I think you can be big help here if you wish to. Thanks . We gotta keep it simple but accurate.

Maybe a ski term thread should be started in the instruction forum and we could build a glossary there also but have more terms that instructors and other skiers might say that are for the more experienced.

[BigE]

Sorry GarryZ for the fluff. I thought we'd be boiling this thread down and then publishing definitions.

My bad.

[nolo]

BigE, your post changed my mind on limiting definitions and their discussion, along with the realization that the audience for this forum may be beginners at skiing, but if they are like the other members of epicski, they are also very intelligent, educated, and sophisticated, and probably can gain from listening to experts haggle out a concise and simple definition for the glossary.

[BillA]

I thought we'd be boiling this thread down and then publishing definitions.

New terms will be added to the list as their definitions are hammered out, keep boiling. Just remember to keep it simple.

[SNPete]

Originally Posted by klkaye

A standard exists ...

level one -- never ever
level two -- starting to learn how to turn and stop on learning surfaces
level three -- starting to link turns, able to stop on some green surfaces
level four -- reliably turning in both directions (linking turns) and stopping on all green and some blue surfaces
level five -- mostly parallel linked turns on all green and blue surfaces
level six -- parallel skiing on all green and blue and most black surfaces
level seven -- mostly dynamic parallel skiing on all green, blue and black surfaces
level eight -- mostly dynamic parallel skiing on all snow surfaces
level nine -- dynamic parallel skiing on all snow surfaces

(the most important distinction is that this is NOT in reference to groomed surfaces ... it's in reference to slope steepness ... it includes all skiing: groomers, powder, moguls, trees, etc. ... typically people ski at a higher level in some conditions than others)

I like the simplicity of your list, but a beginner won't know what the term "dynamic parallel" means.

[GarryZ]

Originally Posted by BigE

Sorry GarryZ for the fluff. I thought we'd be boiling this thread down and then publishing definitions.

My bad.

Not bad. Your definition you settled on is in bold letters. then you added discussion and your thought process. I thought it was a great post

[Lars]

Actually, Boilerplate is ice that is so hard you can't edge into it.

We get alot of it around here. The word comes from boilerplate steel. Hardened steel that used to be used to make steam engines. Hard stuff.

[Ron White]

BigE,

With apex = skis pointing down the fall-line, the student knows the turn is half over.

What if the turn doesn't pass the fall line?? Is there no apex? I don't use the term. My point is I think this thread has gotten way hijacked. Definitions have to be the same as quality instruction, simple, understandable, direct and correct in the context asked.

Maybe beginners need to know where 90 deg. to the fall line is.
Maybe the instructors only need to know the difference between upper-body rotation and leg rotation.

I never try to show off how much I know (or don't know), but try to communicate simply and effectivly. I hope to be able to do this in the "beginner zone" threads.


RW

[BigE]

Originally Posted by Ron White

Definitions have to be the same as quality instruction, simple, understandable, direct and correct in the context asked.

Apex = outside ski pointing down fall line is simple.
It is understandable. It is direct.
It is correct in the context of the round turn we strive to teach beginners.

If you have a better definition, that matches the context please share it.

[nolo]

Flexion: Bending the joints of the lower body (hips, knees, ankles)

Extension: Straightening the joints of the lower body (hips, knees, ankles)

Herringbone: Walking uphill with skis in a V-position, leaving a herringbone pattern on the snow.

Sidestep: Walking sideways uphill with small stairsteps.

Sliding: Skis traveling in a forwards direction (also known as gliding).

Skidding: Skis traveling in a combined forwards and sideways direction.

Slipping: Skis traveling in a sideways direction (also known as side-slipping).