Glossary ideas and requests

[GarryZ]

Want an answer to a word or term you are not familiar with ? So many words thrown out here and it's hard sometimes to keep them straight. Post them here and you'll get a good answer.

[BigE]

Fall line

Apex

Rotation

[SNPete]

Crud.

Boiler Plate.

[nolo]

To speed things up, if you know the definition, please give that with your suggested addition to the glossary.

I know that the different types of snow and their nicknames have been discussed at length here at epicski. We should add those links to a section devoted to types of snow that SN Pete mentioned among others. Ditto any other nominated terms that have spawned whole threads in the past.

[GarryZ]

[quote=BigE;683506]Fall line-The lne that gravity would pull. you As a ball would roll if released down the hill

Apex- The middle of the turn. You would be in the fall line at the apex

Rotation - Any body part moving in relation to another. Your legs ,spine, ankles, arms or neck for example would all be able to make rotation happen . All in differing degrees of effectiveness

[BigE]

Apex: That point in the turn that your skis point straight down the fall-line.

The problem with general definitions of "rotation" is that they don't help.

The term "rotation" as applied to sking, needs to be made more specific, else it's useless.

The CSIA uses "rotation" to denote movement of the upper body in the direction of the turn. An example of this sort of rotation is the "thrown shoulder" driving the turn. In general, rotation is bad.

We use "pivotting" to denote turning the feet independently of the upper body. Pivotting is one of our 5 skills. (not 4 , we have 5). If you delve into this in a biomechanical sense, the femurs rotate in the hip socket. But this is "femur rotation"; it is not the same as the "rotation" that we assign to the upper body.

Here is an example of why the term rotation needs to be limited:

"Counter-rotation" is a term that identifies movement of the upper body in the opposite direction to the turn. It is rotation such that the skier faces the outside of the turn. It's opposite is "rotation" -- upper body rotating in the same direction as the turn, so that the skier faces more towards the direction of travel. It should be limited to this interpretation. Expanding "rotation" to mean something other than the opposite of counter-rotation is an error.

IMO, having this right is very important.

[KevinF]

Originally Posted by GarryZ

Fall line-The lne that gravity would pull. you As a ball would roll if released down the hill

I think the "fall line" definition needs to be ammended in some fashion to at least mention the concept of "double fall lines". The proper wording isn't coming to mind right now though.

[BigE]

how about:

Fall-line: The initial direction that a ball would begin to roll down the hill if dropped. The path of the rolling ball itself is not the fall-line; the initial direction that the ball rolls may change when re-dropped anywhere along this path. The initial direction is the fall-line.

[nolo]

Simplicity is key here, people. The fall line is the path that a ski would take down the hill if it had no brakes and no brains (i.e., a skier) attached to it telling it to take a different path. In springtime, water from snowmelt takes the fall line as its route down the hill. If you can give the definition context (use the word in a sensible sentence) all the better.

[BigE]

nolo, that is unforunately incorrect. Once in motion, the inertia of the ski would lessen changed in the direction due to change in fall-line. That's why you have to keep picking it up and dropping it over and over again.

[KevinF]

Originally Posted by BigE

nolo, that is unforunately incorrect. Once in motion, the inertia of the ski would lessen changed in the direction due to change in fall-line. That's why you have to keep picking it up and dropping it over and over again.

I'm assuming the intended audience of these definitions are for self-described beginners? After all, this thread does reside in the "Beginner Zone" forum. Are we going for technically correct definitions or are we going for definitions that are understandable to beginners who probably don't recall the laws of Newtonian mechanics?

[Lars]

looks like the beginning to a new wikkipedia.

hopefully, the answers will be more accurate than those in wikkipedia.

[BigE]

Well KevinF, it would be nice to have the definitions be correct.

Fall-line: The direction that a ball starts to roll if dropped at a spot on the hill.

[SNPete]

Nuthin' like a (soon to be) seven page thread on what defines a fall line to help the newbie understand a simple concept.

[SNPete]

Originally Posted by SNPete

Crud.

Boiler Plate.

From my limited understanding.

Crud: It ain't groomed. It ain't powder. It ain't ice.

What it ain't is what it is.

Boiler Plate: The next best thing to ice. (I've never seen it or skied it. Just going by what people say.)

[ssh]

Originally Posted by BigE

Apex: That point in the turn that your skis point straight down the fall-line.

BigE, I'm not sure that's accurate in all cases. It's really the midpoint of the turn when the skis are at their greatest lateral distance from the body. If a skier makes turns other than straight down the fall line, the apex will likely not occur in the fall line.

[BigE]

Hmm, we're both wrong. The turn has an apex if it is wedged too, and the CM remains above the BoS.

At least if the wedge turns are straight down the fall-line, the outside ski will point straight down the fall-line, but you're right. Still not right. Same problem if the turns are not symmetrical above and below the apex.

[ssh]

Well, the word "apex" means the "highest point". So, it's the "highest point" in the turn, or the most extreme point in the turn between the transitions. But, what are the right words?

[BigE]

Right.

The apex of a turn would be the farthest point on the turn that intersects any perpendicular to the straight line drawn from the beginning to end of the turn.

Simplify that!

[Bonni]

Originally Posted by SNPete

Nuthin' like a (soon to be) seven page thread on what defines a fall line to help the newbie understand a simple concept.

Agreed, Pete. What's happening here, guys? Why are you complicating a simple thing? It's the beginners area. I don't know what you're saying (BoS???) and more importantly, IT WON'T HELP THE NEW SKIER.

Where are the definitions of these acronyms? CM? BoS? I know that CM is Center of Mass, but a new skier won't, and won't know what it means. This is just more chatter that doesn't belong here. Hash it out in another forum, or try to look at it from a new skier's perspective.

KISS it (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

[BigE]

The apex is the tangent to the turn that is parallel to the straight line drawn that connects the beginning and end of the turn.

[BigE]

Originally Posted by Bonni

Agreed, Pete. What's happening here, guys? Why are you complicating a simple thing? It's the beginners area. I don't know what you're saying (BoS???) and more importantly, IT WON'T HELP THE NEW SKIER.

KISS it (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

Well I'd hope that once we hammer out these simple definitions, they'd be lifted to the real glossary.

[Bonni]

Originally Posted by BigE

The apex is the tangent to the turn that is parallel to the straight line drawn that connects the beginning and end of the turn.

Yeah, ok. See ya.

[ssh]

Originally Posted by BigE

Well I'd hope that once we hammer out these simple definitions, they'd be lifted to the real glossary.

Exactly! And sometimes, that's not easy.

[jhcooley]

Originally Posted by Bonni

Agreed, Pete. What's happening here, guys? Why are you complicating a simple thing? It's the beginners area. I don't know what you're saying (BoS???) and more importantly, IT WON'T HELP THE NEW SKIER.

Where are the definitions of these acronyms? CM? BoS? I know that CM is Center of Mass, but a new skier won't, and won't know what it means. This is just more chatter that doesn't belong here. Hash it out in another forum, or try to look at it from a new skier's perspective.

KISS it (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

I agree that definitions about which there is any debate should be debated elsewhere. Everything in the Beginner Zone should be as simple and direct as possible.

Note that some relatively simple concepts ("fall line," for example) may expand when examined closely (general or "global" fall line of a relatively large section of a run, versus the "local" fall line off the bump I'm standing on, etc.). Can we provide a simple definition which will allow later expansion of understanding?

I might suggest that reasonably well accepted definitions for many terms will be found in Bob Barnes' book. If you don't agree with Bob, then discuss it in the technique forum, or maybe the Supporter's Lounge.

[Pete No. Idaho]

BOILERPLATE Solid ice, not hardpack, not skied off hard snow Bue solid ice.

Fall Line. When explaining this to beginners I pull a small kids sized soccer ball out and throw it up the beginner run. To the class the fall line is the route the ball comes back to us (down the hill). Then it is explained why this is important to a beginner. Primarily when you fall, get your skis across the fall line to get up and then show them what happends if you don't "get across the fall line". Forget all the complex crap that a beginner won't understand and doesn't give a crap about. KISS

Interesting definitiion of the Apex of a turn. Now do you know a beginner who gives a darn about the apex of his lst turn, hell no all he or she wants is to do it without falling or warping out of control. My recommendation is to leave Apex out of a beginners forum.

CRUD. Glossary. Crummy snow, not recently groomed. (they'll discover that answer soon enough.

KISS KISS KISS KISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BigE]

How about FALL LINE: The fastest way downhill.

It's pretty clear that if you can always stay in the fall-line, you'll be fastest.

Apex: The maximum sideways distance between start and finish of a turn.

or more visually,

That point in the turn that makes the largest triangle you can fit between the start, finish and any other point in the turn.

These are hard because they come from a mathematical world, fall-line is the gradient of the surface, and apex requires a measurement of some sort.

What is nice about these two definitions, is that you can relate the location of the apex to the speed and effects you will encounter. A comma shaped turn, will have the apex higher uphill, and so you will exit the turn with most speed, having spent more time near fall-line after the bulk of the turn is done.

If the apex is centered, the turn is round, and speed/pressures are more even through the turn, and more easy to manage.

If the apex is closer to the bottom of the turn, the pressure at the bottom will be more pronounced since you've spent more time in the fall-line before you've turned, giving the turn a "J" shape. It takes a lot of effort.

I think APEX and fall-line are important ideas that can help a beginner understand why round turns are a good goal. Speed control is made simpler than the other two options.

[GarryZ]

Hey somebody moved my post.
Good idea.

Maybe a good one also to move this out of the beginner zone and hash out the definitions and then insert them after a reasonable agreement is. met. If the terms cannot be simply explained they don't belong there.

[Lars]

Garry, in the Supporter lounge there is a place for technical discussions. It's there for just this purpose. A place where people can go and discuss issues in relative comfort from hit and run posters, mostly non supporters who might have a different agenda.

My suggestion, when questions are posted here, if they are relatively simple and not confusing, just post the answer and let further discussion go. If the question needs discussion, take it there so there is no confusion to the person posting the question.

This way we won't have 30 post answers for a simple thread.

[Ghost]

Apex, tightest part of the turn.
Fall line, steepest direction.