I love it, the 'Mac Faithful' throwing out the same old lame arguments. Criticize this guy Steve Woods, talk about how big an idiot he is, blah blah blah. Sorry folks but both platforms are viable. The PC is just proving to be too much of the standard. You can sit around and cry in your milk but that's not gonna change the perception. A lame order for 23,000 doesn't counter the fact that the Mac has been losing ground in the Education Markets for YEARS! Get ready because the Macs last big market is quickly crumbling into your milk.

I didn't read all 93 messages that were part of this thread at the time I wrote this. I did read about 60% of it. Concerning Mr. Woods article, it is a pure opinion piece. You will notice there is little to no technical facts in the entire article. When he tries to use actual specifications for comparison, he shows his lack of research.

I'm not a teacher, but I service many of the schools in my area. Some have Macs, some have Windows. There is no question that, in my experience, the Mac labs are allowing the students to be more productive.

The teacher spends less time fixing minor problems, or answering questions that most of us take for granted. You must realize that many schools have students that do not have computers at home. Their only exposure is in the schools. This is another reason why computers must be easy to use and support.

Grade schools are not trade schools. We are teaching topics, not operating systems basics. With a Mac lab you only need basic mouse skills, and you or off. This has been proven time and time again in many published studies.

TCO is also incredibly important. I saw a district in Iowa replace their Mac labs with PCs the year the iMac was released. To save money, they bought them with Windows 95 pre-installed, and a WinNT license for all of them. So out of the box, somebody had to install WinNT on hundreds of computers. That was not figured into their initial cost figures. They also had to replace or upgrade most of these computers when Win2000 came around. I also failed to mention the costs of insuring Y2K compliency.

The fact is, these schools ignore costs they know they will incur. Any school teacher that prefers Windows over Mac in the classroom, then bitches about teacher salaries should not be teaching our children.

. . .to with your w(h)ine Mr. Wood?

I think his gripe is that Apple doesn't sell it to him for a song, for his own personal use. The districts buy these computers so the iBook's price isn't much of a concern. School districts in many southern states don't show any concern about how much they spend on football which is their state religion.

And anyone who rants on that nonsense about phasing out Macs in favor of PCs to teach children the "future skills" they need is using a lazy argument. Are fifth graders (for example) supposed to be taught how to become future IT workers with a version of Windows that will be obsolete when they're adults? No. The purpose of computers in schools is instruction in other skills: typing, reading comprehension, etc. Basically, the computer is an electronic version of flash cards and those old SRA boxes. But with a server in the mix, it can keep track of everyone. This is where the Mac is usually superior since the IT staff in many schools are the teachers, not full-time employees who can dedicate 40 hours a week to debugging MS products.

Watch all those clowns on school boards go on about the merits of Dell. Then confront them about the "grant" they rec'd from Dell to buy 5 digits of their equipment. Then throw in the question about how much tax money do they plan to spend on downtime and IT employees.

Apple will be around in Education for a long time to come because tax payers in the States are selfish. They don't want to do what it takes to retain decent teachers (mainly salary) so they're not going to do what it takes to have decent IT staffs in schools. Ergo, Apple will have an advantage there and Apple can win back many school districts that left for the more expensive (after you throw in ownership costs of time) Dells, Gateways and Compaqs.

"Listen here dog breath. I'm gonna insult yo ass up and down you sniveling slut. Lets see if you can pick out the argument in all my insults hurled at your ass licking face."

Oh, this is a very intelligent statement.

"PC is a standard at nothing. A PC is a tool, the easier it is to use the tool the easier it is to prosper from it."

I don't know of any computer that isn't a tool! Doesn't matter if it's a standard at nothing if 90% of the people are using it - and I notice the PC is prospering quite nicely.

"Education got this early on, but with the infection of inferior IT people who are still stuck trying to remember DOS commands now pervade schools. Maybe some of these IT bozos are Cobol rejects from Y2K."

At least I'll bet that the "IT bozos" that work with Cobol are at least a lot smarter than you. I'll bet you're not an IT person. Most IT people that I know that work with macs are in a heterogenous environment to HAVE to know how to make the interoperability between systems work - and that INCLUDES command lines. It's not like UNIX is easier. Most are NOT in ALL mac environments, and because of that, are usually more intelligent than the standard mac bigot and won't lower themselves to these kinds of insults. In most environments that I've been in, it's not even a mac vs. pc war - the mac is just considered a nonissue altogether.

"Whatever it is, they don't get paid unless they slut wintel."

I work in primarily a Sun enviroment, and I get paid more than the average wintel person. Incidentally, Solaris boxes make EXCELLENT mac servers.

"Fools like you preach up and down the death of Apple. So far you're wrong you dumb slut. You inbred twit. Now with better priced iBooks, a Unix based OS and more Apple has lots to show for."

You must love hearing yourself spew insults. If I was going to be choosing a computer, just listening to you spewing alone would be enough for me to steer away from the platform - you're not doing it any justice. Oh, and it's "Apple has a lot to show for", not "lots to show for".

"Oh and yeah Unix is a strong standard big level corporate operating system for the likes of servers."

OS X isn't anywhere NEAR a "big level coporate operating system" YET. There's a lot in there that still needs work. When I go into an Exodus Datacenter facility, all I see are Suns, HPs, Compaqs, Dell, and even some VALinux and Cobalt boxes - Apple is nowhere to be found. And the "real" big level corporate servers have anywhere from 4 processors on up - the companies that want "real" servers are going to go to Solaris, or HP-UX, or AIX, not Apple. Apple doesn't have a "real" server to compete in this corporate arena, and WHEN they do, they'll still have the corporate perception to win over - not an easy battle.

"Slut, understand that an easy to use unix like

Boy, if the previous message (RE: Mac Bigots, 5/5/01 8:34 pm EDT) is any indication, this thread has gone way off the topic. Maybe we should all move on now.

"At least I'll bet that the "IT bozos" that work with Cobol are at least a lot smarter than you. I'll bet you're not an IT person. Most IT people that I know that work with macs are in a heterogenous environment to HAVE to know how to make the interoperability between systems work - and that INCLUDES command lines. It's not like UNIX is easier. Most are NOT in ALL mac environments, and because of that, are usually more intelligent than the standard mac bigot and won't lower themselves to these kinds of insults. In most environments that I've been in, it's not even a mac vs. pc war - the mac is just considered a nonissue altogether.
"

Don't say you bet. Just say assume, because we know its the same result. You're still an ass.
Windows 2000 Server, Novell Netware, Unix services, I deal with them.


"You must love hearing yourself spew insults. If I was going to be choosing a computer, just listening to you spewing alone would be enough for me to steer away from the platform - you're not doing it any justice. Oh, and it's "Apple has a lot to show for", not "lots to show for". "

Oh lookey here. Or should I say lookie here, spell flames?
Take a look at a dictionary, look up the word slang. That phrase is slang, if thats the best you can pick at go back to picking your butt monkey slut.


"OS X isn't anywhere NEAR a "big level coporate operating system" YET. There's a lot in there that still needs work. When I go into an Exodus Datacenter facility, all I see are Suns, HPs, Compaqs, Dell, and even some VALinux and Cobalt boxes - Apple is nowhere to be found. And the "real" big level corporate servers have anywhere from 4 processors on up - the companies that want "real" servers are going to go to Solaris, or HP-UX, or AIX, not Apple. Apple doesn't have a "real" server to compete in this corporate arena, and WHEN they do, they'll still have the corporate perception to win over - not an easy battle. "


Uhhh Duh!!!, oops another potential for him to spell flame. Since Duh is not really a word found in the dictionary. See the above about slang.
Yes Apple ain't (you must love this language anal boy) heavy into the server arena. The OS is new and does need work like you say. The hardware isn't there yet either in terms of high level server capabilities. Yeah a dual server is nice for some of the more simple services that need to be delivered. But to deliver a solid backbone server Apple obviously needs to go with more than 2 CPUs. 2 CPUs ain't (oops there it is again) gonna cut it for high level corporate use. They are in the process of refining the OS and the hardware as well in order to bring it.

So sing it bitch!


Just call me Mac Phanboy, cuz thats all you got. That and spell flames you grabbin from your pot.

Yeesh, how many flew over the cuckoos nest on this thread.
These weekend threads really drag on.

I was suprised that the Compaq Presario 12XL400 & 500 come with TFT screens at $899-999. However, that bonus aside, the brick-size (and shape) 12XL's are no match for the the new iBook. Any review of laptops divides them not by price but by weight classes: ultralights (7 lb, cheaper components and barebones features). There is NO PC notebook in the thin & light category that can match the iBook's price/weight/size/features at its pricepoint. Indeed, there is NO 2-spindle (CD included) PC laptop under $2000. There is NO QUESTION the iBook is a FANTASTIC deal; I ordered one as soon as I read about it. I was going to buy a Fujitsu Lifebook S4546 at $2600 (P3 600 128/10G/DVD 4.5 lb), because Apple didn't have ANY thin & lights... and now they have two, BOTH price-competitive with PCs, but the iBook WAY WAY cheaper than comparable (notice I said COMPARABLE) PC notebooks.

Unfortunately, most people DO look ONLY at the bottom line, and Apple DOES need lower-priced products to compete with PC pricing, especially in education. I think they should offer stripped-down Macs at lower prices, or give up a little profit margin to gain a lot of marketshare. They succeeded initially in expanding marketshare by giving generous higher ed discounts, and now the discounts are nil (after sales tax, it's MORE expensive than an out-of-state mail order purchase).

David

Something got butchered on the last post... please ignore it.

I was suprised that the Compaq Presario 12XL400 & 500 come with TFT screens at $899-999. However, that bonus aside, the brick-size (and shape) 12XL's are no match for the the new iBook. Any review of laptops divides them not by price but by weight classes: ultralights (6 lb, cheaper components and barebones features). There is NO PC notebook in the thin & light category that can match the iBook's price/weight/size/features at its pricepoint. Indeed, there is NO 2-spindle (CD included) PC laptop under $2000. There is NO QUESTION the iBook is a FANTASTIC deal; I ordere one as soon as I read about it. I was going to buy a Fujitsu Lifebook S4546 at $2600 (P3 600 128/10G/DVD 4.5 lb), because Apple didn't have ANY thin & lights... and now they have two, BOTH price-competitive with PCs, but the iBook WAY WAY cheaper than comparable (notice I said COMPARABLE) PC notebooks.

Unfortunately, most people DO look ONLY at the bottom line, and Apple DOES need lower-priced products to compete with PC pricing, especially in education. I think they should offer stripped-down Macs at lower prices, or give up a little profit margin to gain a lot of marketshare. They succeeded initially in expanding marketshare by giving generous higher ed discounts, and now the discounts are nil (after sales tax, it's MORE expensive than an out-of-state mail order purchase).

David

Wow... same thing happened in the same place...

The weight classes are: ultralights (6 lbs, cheaper components and barebones features).

David